Danny, I have now made some NPOV-ish amendments to the paragraphs we have been discussing. I do tend to take hard positions when I am arguing, then reconsider later. Let me know what you think.
PS Your talkpage is too long :)
PPS A good article on Hirshfeld. It reminds me to ask: have you ever heard the story that Hirschel Grunspan (spelling?) and Vom Rath, the German diplomat he shot, were lovers or ex-lovers, and that was why he shot him?
Dr Adam Carr 03:44, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I don't recall where I saw the Grunszpan / vom Rath story - i will have a hunt.
I see at your Marinus van de Lubbe article you call the Dutch CP the CPH. I would think it was Communistische Partij van Nederland (CPN) Dr Adam Carr 04:21, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Danny, thanks for the great work on Adolf Hitler. Can I ask that you sign your comments on the Talk page, even very short comments, as it is now hard to figure out who wrote what. I'm making the same request to Adam. Thanks. --zero 04:25, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Later: Danny I have located some leads on Grynszpan/vom Rath. Perhaps it is a piece of David Irving disinformation, but it does seem to have a long pedigree.
- this piece argues that Grynszpan made up the affair with v Rath as a defence.
Later: Out of curiosity I had a look at the Polish version of Adolf Hitler, and I see that in the first line they perpetuate the Schickelgruber myth. I imagine that's even harder for a Polish writer to be NPOV about Hitler than it is for me, but that should be corrected. Do you know any Polish or Polonophone Wikipedians? Someone knowledgable should check the whole article. Adam 09:21, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Danny, thanks very much for that, you were one of the people I was hoping would respond.
I would like you to comment on the overall structure of the article before we get down to details.
- On Dreyfus and Herzl I wrote:
- The key event in triggering the modern Zionist movement was the Dreyfus Affair, which erupted in France in 1894. Jews were profoundly shocked to see this outbreak of virulent anti-Semitism in a country which they thought of as the home of enlightenment and liberty. Among those who witnessed the Affair was an Austrian-Jewish journalist, Theodor Herzl, who published his pamphlet Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State") in 1896. In 1897 Herzl organised a congress in Basel, Switzerland, which founded the World Zionist Organisation (WZO) and elected Herzl as its President.
- Do you have problems with this?
- You say: "Another common mistake people make is identifying almost all Jews as pro-Zionist."
- I thought had made that point fairly extensively. Yes I should mention the Bund. I haven't heard of some of these others you mention, but I will look them up.
- "BTW, if you want the gay angle, Jakob de Haan is fascinating. I have a great scoop on the assassination from someone who was in the know, but I cannot verify it, so it cannot go in."
- I have no idea what this is referring to - please enlighten me.
BTW, I am astonished there is no article on Jewish emancipation (or the Bund) and that the article on the Rothschilds is only a stub. What have you been doing? :)
Adam 16:27, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The Bundists I have met here have all been very elderly :)
I'm a bit surprised that User:Adam Carr/Zionism hasn't had much comment yet. I suppose the way to provoke comment is just to replace Zionism with my article, but I'm a bit wary of appearing too arrogant (I am arrogant, of course, but I try to conceal it :)) What do you think about the protocol of doing that? Adam 06:10, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Messianic Judaism refers to a group of evangelical Christian religious movements, self-identified as Jewish, that believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah foretold in biblical prophechy. They are not regarded as Jewish by any mainstream segments of the Jewish community. -- Isn't it true that many or most of these people are halakhically Jewish? Then the last part is wrong; it should say something like that their beliefs are not regarded as Jewish by the mainstream, not they themselves. Then again, what would I know ;-) ? --Zero 13:42, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Thanks, the new introduction has it just right I think. Also thanks for deleting Mohler; I hope it sticks. I won't put in any quotations about Messianic Judaism being a cancer on Judaism either ;-). --Zero 14:47, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- In English: Lithuania, Poland and Russia
- In translitered Yiddish: Lithuania, Russia and Poland
- In Yiddish: Russia, Lithuania and Poland
- That's three different permutations. Which is correct?
On another topic, might you be able to add something about Ahad Ha'am to the new Zionism article? --Zero 13:45, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
And while you're at it, Danny, do you know anything about Edgardo Mortara? I was led to this by the debate over involuntary baptism at User:Adam Carr/Mother Teresa (I seem to be developing an obsession with Jewish history). Adam 13:55, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Re my strange obsessions. They come and go in cycles. In this case working for a Jewish politician probably doesn't help.
- Edgardo Mortara is mostly cribbed from online sources and needs to be checked by someone knowledgeable. Also I can't find a pic of him anywhere. Have you got one you can scan?
- I turned Herschel Grynszpan into an gay press article (click page 4).
Adam 07:18, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Danny, I wonder if anti-Semitism is salvagable at all in this environment. There is no way to prevent people from adding every little thing they see in a newspaper or on adl.org. What do you think about a new separate article on the earlier time-periods? I'd suggest the time period [-infinity..WWI], but the endpoint could be later provided it is not recent enough to run into the present edit-wars. If it was initially prepared off-line like the new Zionism article (which I still plan to work on), it would have a chance of survival I think. The more recent times could then be tackled later. What do you think? Obviously it would be a lot of work. --Zero 23:33, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Danny, you are now overly emotional. Please stop unilaterally gutting this anti-Semitism article, and pushing your own POV. Also, please stop your disingenuous attacks against me; you keep deleting the section on Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism...you you yourself agreed with this point of view when we spoke about this issue, at length, on the telephone. Were you lying to me? Or are you lying to Wikipedians now? In any case, no one person has the right to gut a two year old Wikipedia article wholesale, and bypass the entire Wikipedia peer review process. You may not take this privilege for yourself, yet deny it for others. These actions, if emulated by others, would lead to total anarchy. RK 03:20, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)
As I said before, I recognize that when you are calm, you make very good suggestions, and do very fine job of writing, which shows a great deal of scholarship. In fact, I support you in carefully working on this article, one step at a time. So stop vandalizing this article for no reason. I am not preventing you from making edits, suggestions, or even large changes. In fact, no one is doing so. Its hard enough dealing with people who refuse to allow you to work...why deliberately vandalize an article and create an edit war with someone who has repeatedly and publicly stated that its Ok to work on this article? RK 03:20, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)
The idea that an unbalanced article can be fixed by adding more on the other side is fundamentally broken. Some things, and this includes listing of countless current events that in the long run of history are insignificant, simply don't belong at all, and I support your deletion of them. Unfortunately, some people are more motivated to fight the good fight than to write sound articles that will pass the test of time. --Zero 10:26, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Danny, Zero has provided me with a slab of text to go in the Zionism article, on the topic of Zionism and the Arabs (before 1948). My only opinion about it at the moment is that it is too long. I would welcome your comment at User talk:Adam Carr Adam 13:21, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I would also welcome your opinion and input. As for the length, I think it is an important topic and I'm more concerned about the stuff that's left out. --Zero 13:55, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Zero, lots of things are important, but the question is how much space should be given to this relative to the length of the rest of the article. Zionist attitudes to the Arabs of Palestine is one aspect of the history of Zionism, but not the only one. But I am sure we can come up with a text that everyone is happy with and which is proportionate to the whole article. Adam 14:55, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Leaving aside (for the moment) the quality of what I wrote, I would argue that it is not too long. I'm sure that, were it not for this aspect of Zionism, the amount of interest in the subject would be only a tiny part of what it is. Many of the readers of the article will come to it primarily to read about this issue. The stuff I wrote would be only 24% of the total if it replaced the existing section and that will drop to 20% when other parts of the article are expanded as they should be. Only 20% on one of the key issues surrounding the history of Zionism does not sound like excess to me. --Zero 08:53, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
OK well I will wait until you have concluded your overall edit and see how it looks in context. Plus I will wait until we get an opinion from Danny.
PS Danny please archive most of this Talk page, my browser is only just coping.
Adam 09:25, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I'm still arguing with Poles *sigh*. Can you authenticate this? : "as Hitler in person said to his soldiers: "We will kill men, women and children of Polish nationality and Polish race. We should be mercyless. Who now remembers the slaughter of Armenians?"
Adam 14:10, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- That's quite famous as a quotation which everyone repeats but nobody gives a primary source for. It was supposed to have been said to his army chiefs shortly before the invasion of Poland. There's a longer version around that mentions Genghis Khan as well. I'd be most interested in a citation of a primary document from someone respectable on this one. Some years ago I located at least 20 books that either gave no source at all or gave a secondary source. There was some reference to some Nuremberg document that I couldn't find. There's also a book "Hitler and the Armenian massacres" but I didn't find it and maybe it is an unreliable polemic like much on that subject. --Zero 14:39, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- (Zero never rests.) I found a long extract of this speech on p219-221 of Making of the Second World War by Anthony P. Adamthwaite, which copied it from Documents on British Foreign Policy 1919-1939, 3rd series, vol VII, p312. The wording is a little different. I'll copy the relevant paragraph here, tomorrow with luck. --Zero 15:15, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Does that mean you accept the quote as authentic? Adam
Danny, Zero has supplied me with this text: On the Armenians, please see p219, p220, and p221 which I extracted from amazon.com (told you it was a useful resource). Then please ask Danny to hard-delete them as they are a possible copyright issue. I'd want to look at the paper of Koch cited on p219 before saying anything about the authenticity. However it does seem that this "speech" appeared during the war and its provenance is an issue. I should have just left for a week away from home so I'll leave this in your hands. When you have time you might look at these sources. Adam 03:09, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
What the about the link i gave in discussion?
googling gave those ppaers: 2. Office of United States Chief of Council for Prosecution of Axis Criminality, Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression [Red Series], 8 vols. and 2 suppl. (Washington, 1946- 48) 7:752-54 (Doc. L-3). See also Winfried Baumgart, "Zur Ansprache Hitlers vor den Fiffirern der Wehrmacht am 22. August 1939," Vierteljahrshefte ffir Zeitgeschichte 16 (1968): 120-49; ibid., 19 (1971): 294-304; and Kevork B. Bardakjian, Hitler and the Armenian Genocide (Cambridge, MA, 1985), pp. 52- 58.
There is a lot in http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/arm_uscongress/appendix.html
There are versions without mentioning Armenians, but stil mentioning that the goeal of the world is killing of Poles, not reaching certain line.
It seems that quote in most cited "canonical" form appeared in Lochner book in 1942. (Louis P. Lochner, What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead and Company, 1942),)
But it is claimed, that text was sent to British embassy in 1939. 1 Documents on British foreign policy 1919-1939, 3rd series, VII. London: HMSO, 1954: 257-60. (Original text as sent to the Foreign Office, 25 August 1939.)
Danny, I am having a tiresome pedant-war with Wik (a very tiresome person). Do you have any evidence on whether Goebbels spelled his name Josef or Joseph? There are many Joseph Goebbels refs on the web, even at German-language sites, but I can't imagine that he spelled it that way. There are a number of refs to Dr Josef Goebbels Strasse, which seems decisive to me, but doesn't satisfy him. What I really need is an authentic contemporary image like a photo with caption or newspaper headline or a letter with signature. Any thoughts?
Reminder (I realise you are both busy):
Team: I have now placed a somewhat trimmed version of Zero's text on Zionism and the Arabs in the article, and done a general edit. Comments please. Do we think we are close to having a text that can replace the existing Zionism article? Adam 13:22, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)
So are you now happy to have this article replace the existing Zionism article? I was hoping to get an opinion from RK, who also seems very knowledgeable, but he hasn't responded. But I think between you me and Zero e have a much better article now. Adam 04:57, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Regarding History of Jews in Soviet Union: Danny, please provide a name of any Jewish settlement in Russia before 1772!
You accidently welcomned someone on their User page instead of their User Talk page. Alexandros
- Thank you very much! I am glad that you enjoyed them. You too have written some very interesting and valuable articles. As I have family in New York, I visit there frequently. Best wishes! Alexandros 16:52, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Yes well I will let RK and Zero flog each other for a while then propose a compromise text. Adam 03:00, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I had a quick look at Nazism. While it isn't terrifically well written, political theory isn't really my field and I wouldn't want to get into editing it. The first para says that the Nazis claimed to be socialists, not that they were socialists, which I suppose it true. Adam 12:44, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I wanted to thank you for your work on Dating the Bible and point out a similar, though much smaller issue exists on documentary hypothesis. JeMa made a revert on Nov 26th of correction I made in the text (to material I originally introduced) on the grounds of my "mental instability". The reasons for my corrections are covered at least twice within Talk:documentary hypothesis. It may be too small to deal with, but with RK trying to raise Cain in Dating the Bible, I do not wish any spillover of the mess in Dating the Bible into DH. Dwmyers 18:34, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for the comment re the Pale. The Irish Pale was quite different to the one you mentioned. From the early 1200s until the reign of Elizabeth I, though England nominally ruled Ireland (as Lord of Ireland until 1536, King of Ireland from then on) its rule really only stretched to a strip of land in the east of Ireland. That was what was known as the Pale. From the reign of Queen Elizabeth, however, English rule spead out beyond the pale. So the pale was just the area of English rule up to the late 14th century. I hope that clears it up. FearÉIREANN 23:10, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
If I reverted anything of yours at culture of Israel, it was an accident. I think we changed almost entirely the same stuff, and have incorporated what you did into my edit, but I may have missed something. Tuf-Kat 22:23, Dec 8, 2003 (UTC)
RK. You have long ago made the point that you are an idiot. No need to hammer it home any further. .... Fortunately, I do not expect more from you
- Feel better now? Don't let your personal anger at me get in the way of being a productive Wiki-citizen. You have the ability to be very productive, and you can be an excellent writer, when you are not being snippy and vindictive. Chill out. RK 22:54, Dec 8, 2003 (UTC)
Your theory about JeMa is looking good. --Zero 03:18, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Hi Danny, just curious: do you feel the ADL represents mainstream Jewish opinion in the USA? -- Viajero 18:50, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
דני שמחתי מאוד לראות שהתחלת לתרום חומר לויקיפדיה בעברית. אני מקווה שתמשיך. אני בטוח שכולנו ניתרם (תהיה תרומה לכולנו)
בוודאי שמת לב, עד כמה התפתח האתר בעברית? אני לא ה"אשם" בכך, יש תורמים כבדים בעיקר דוד שי ובן-הטבע. אני גם חושב שמתחילים להיווצר מאמרים טובים באתר.
אגב, למה אתה לא נכנס עם שם משתמש לאתר? (ואני מקווה כי אני לא טועה
^^ Dod1 02:56, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
So it was not you, who entered the data relating to the Swiss cities: Lucerne etc.? Anyway I think we will prevail (is that the right word?). Looking at the average article size and number of visits per page, of the Romanian Wiki, it looks we are far ahead.
I ask again to contribute to wiki:he - your experience can boost things up. We will beat. ^^ Dod1 03:28, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I'm not sure....
I can't find what the problem is. I counted trs, tds and ths and they all look normal. Maybe copy the alsace table in and edit it? Zocky 04:16, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Thanks, Danny, for your comments on the very questionable text that has been (several time) inserted (and reinserted) on the Dance page. I was also appalled by the comments about how "savages" dance (whoever these savages might be???). I went on to research the text which, as it turned out, had been plagiarized and presented on the page as if it was original by JesusSaves. The text is plagiarized from Project Gutenberg's online publishing of "Questionable Amusements and Worthy Substitutes" by J.M. Judy. The plagiarism is almost word-for-word in most cases, with little attempt to rework the information. You can find the full etext at Project Gutenberg: Questionable Amusements and Worthy Substitutes by J.M. Judy It was originally published by Western Methodist Book Concern in 1904.
The section of text that User:Jesus Saves! had contributed to the Dance article has now been removed (again) and placed on a separate page Dance in mythology and religion, since it is suspected that it is not going to disappear soon.
- Sfdan 12:33, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Danny, Please note that if you change the form of a Rep's name at List of members of the U.S. House of Representatives (as you did with Michael N. Castle), you must also change it at U.S. House election, 2004.
Also, what did you think of the final form of anti-Zionism? Over Christmas we should have a go at anti-Semitism, if you are up for more of this kind of stuff. Happy Chanukah, Adam 03:43, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Unless the recording itself is important (as opposed to being a thorough collection of Armenian music), I would recommend just adding a citation to the References section. There's probably an MLA or APA format for albums, but I dunno know what it is. If the album (or series of albums) played an important role in the development or popularization of Armenian music, then I'd mention it in the prose. Tuf-Kat 04:54, Dec 22, 2003 (UTC)
Re deleting junk: seems to be all I do these days. Your turn next. --Zero 11:02, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
A suggestion regarding the Israeli section of Ultra-Orthodox Judaism: the fact that there is a separate education system is mentioned only indirectly. It would help to have this stated explicitly with whatever details you think appropriate. --Zero 01:36, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Re Mike Rogerses: Unless we can find out their full names (Michael A Rogers and Michael B Rogers), we will have to tag them Mike Rogers (Alabama) and Mike Rogers (Michigan I guess. Of course, whatever we do Jiang will come along and change it. You don't seem to be making much progress by the way. Adam 12:35, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Yes, I saw Timeline of Anti-Semitism. It isn't fixable, but getting it deleted would be hard. Sometimes the Wikipedia workflow model just doesn't work. Meanwhile, here's something. Don't shoot the messenger. --Zero 04:09, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)
About Aliyah: I think that the mechanism which is supposed to trap simultaneous edits is broken. Presumably something to do with the current server problems. The same thing just happened to me (edits lost without warning). --Zero 09:35, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Refusal to serve in the Israeli military: It's a lot better than my small effort at Israel Defence Forces. I noticed some English problems; I'll work on those tomorrow if you don't get to it first. Another good link: http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp . Also a survey on public opinion: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/375945.html . What about the other type of refusal: refusal to dismantle settlements? I guess that has a history going back at least to Yamit. --Zero 15:41, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Yamit: you are right. I remember there were some rabbis (also some politicians?) calling on soldiers to refuse but no significant actual refusal. (but maybe behind the scenes...)
- Does this organization deserve a paragraph too? I didn't hear of them before.
- Why did you transliterate MaTKaL like that? Of course I realise what the algorithm is but you didn't write YeSh or LeSaReV. Any objection to using Sayeret Matkal (which is how the English edition of Haaretz rendered it)?
- I wonder if there is any hard evidence (more than just anecdotal) about the prevalence of hidden refusal. A friend in the reserves tells me he just warns his CO that he won't cooperate in the territories and the CO gives him something different to do. Nothing gets public. Of course not all COs would be so sympathetic.
- --Zero 05:31, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Aha, I didn't realise it was an acronym. Btw, that huge pile of crap just got reinserted into Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I've deleted it twice now, do you want a turn? --Zero 14:00, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Hi Danny. Per your request on my talk page, I've revised the LDS section on the Israelite article. I'm inviting some of my other fellow-Mormon-Wikipedians to review my work. As you can see from the changes, there is some work to be done on chosen people too. Happy New Year's to you. B 19:05, Jan 2, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the compliment on gehenna. While now rather backslid, I was raised Christian, and recall seeing footnotes in the Bible saying something like Greek: gehenna. When I saw the blank link, I decided to grab it. I put the Hebrew stuff in, but it was only copy-paste — I have no knowledge of Hebrew. — dino.
Danny, this may interest you. You will notice that the Yiddish version of the name of the Bund is different again from the one we have in the article. Adam 03:01, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Yes but it's not just that the name is different, it's that the Yiddish words themselves are different, such as Lite for Lithuania instead of Litauer. I know there were regional variants of Yiddish - does this explain it?
See RK's comment at my talk page - what are you two fighting about now? Adam 02:49, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Me with Yos Zeusovich Teper, 88, veteran of Stalingrad. What are the odds that a Jew born in Odessa in 1916 would survive the 20th century and live to an active old age in Melbourne Australia? Adam 03:31, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
(Not sure why I'm writing to myself like this but..) I see the Israel-Palestinian conflict fun continues. No problem, some of my best friends are vandals. I'll do some deleting tomorrow. --Zero 12:43, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Sorry to hear that, Danny. Anyway, good luck. --Zero 16:44, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Welcome back Danny! You had us worried there for a while. Wikipedia is a better place with you. :) --mav 13:24, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hi Danny, User:OneVoice created a stub for Faisal Husseini; I copyedited and expanded it slightly, but I don't know a lot about the subject. Care to have a go at it? -- Viajero 23:11, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hey you are back! let loud Hosannas ring etc. You should see Jimbo's talk page for some unsolicited testimonials to how much you are valued here. Not least by Adam 06:51, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hi again, surprised on not finding one already, I created an entry for Yishuv, but it is basically a one-line definition. Maybe it is enough? Maybe something more can be said about the term?... -- Viajero 11:46, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I have added some material. Adam 04:17, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Danny, if you are still with us, you might like to look at Jean-Marie Lustiger and tell me if I have got any of the Jewish stuff wrong. A friend tells me that Lustiger is still halachically (is that the word?) a Jew because it is impossible to "convert out." Your opinion? Adam 05:50, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments on Lustiger, and it's nice to hear from you again. I have reinstated some of the text you deleted, altered to take into account the points about Jewish law, because I think it is important that the question of whether Lustiger is or is not a Jew and what Jews think of him ought to be discussed. Adam 14:11, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Here is your WikiCookie:
Danny, what is a good literal translation of the name of the "security fence" as used by the Israeli government, such as here? I see "seam zone" in the header, but is that the fence itself or the route of the fence or the land beside the fence? Thanks. --Zero 12:40, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. Is "security fence" a fair translation of what they call the thing itself? --Zero 13:13, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The Haaretz English edition always uses "separation fence", so I guess they are using a literal translation of the Hebrew edition. --Zero 00:27, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
A question: I have organized the page list of cultural and regional genres of music so that it is not a single long list, and am uncertain about how to classify Ashkenazi music (which isn't yet written) and Sephardic music (which is). I now have them classified as a genre "by religion", but I'm not sure if the division of Diaspora Jews into Sephardic and Ashkenazi categories is even remotely religious or if its entirely ethnic, or some other criteria entirely. What do you think? Tuf-Kat 04:06, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
Danny, please read the Maariv piece linked at the end of Talk:Israeli_security_barrier. Who exactly is being quoted as saying the fence makes it harder to carry out attacks inside Israel? Thanks. --Zero 00:13, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your kind comment on my Shelly Manne page. What a quick response! This Wikipedia is amazing! -- Alan W 03:32, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Sorry about the incorrect date in my last comment. Should have been 28 Jan. I suspect there's a way to get the timestamp generated automatically, but, as a newbie to the Wikipedia, I haven't found it. -- Alan W 03:47, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Danny, should we always leave off "Saint"ly titles? PdxgoatPdxgoat
New arrival: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=StarOfDavid. -- Viajero 14:12, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the help with the long-requested articles stuff. Sorry that I rode rough-shod over you when I had an edit conflict - seemed like the easiest thing to do was re-integrate your changes afterwards - which I did. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:49, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Yes, Danny, I do know the names. Faisal was an established Arab authority. Would you characterize the actions taken prior as Arab policy (which authority) or as brigandtry by individuals and groups. How do we include both aspects in the historical overview. It currently is a black-and-white depiction of a multi-shaded history. OneVoice 13:53, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
arn't you a tertiary source? Sam Spade 10:18, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I would like to formally invite you to join others at Wikipedia:Wikiproject_Arab-Israeli_conflict to work with us toward resolving issues that have arisen and resulted in edit wars here at Wikipedia. Also, I would like to formally request that you agree, along with the rest of us, to refrain from editting each of the articles that are listed as currently under protection or subject to edit wars on that page till the issues regarding that particular article have been resolved and we have removed that article from the currently under protection or subject to edit wars list. OneVoice 21:15, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- We are also working on a more universal boilerplate for use in inviting people to WP:AIC at: WP:AICB. -戴眩sv 03:12, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Danny, I note that you have refused to work with us at Wikipedia:Wikiproject_Arab-Israeli_conflict to defuse the frequent edit wars regarding these articles at Wikipedia. Could you tell us why? Perhaps we can address your concerns. OneVoice 13:23, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Any counter examples Danny ? OneVoice 15:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Danny, One of the tiny details that puzzled me when I was writing Kfar Kassem massacre was the fine imposed on Shadmi. In several respectible places I found "1 agora". However, the agora was not circulated until 1960  and the previous small unit (pruta) was 10 times smaller. Did Shadmi's trial last until 1960, or was he actually fined 1 pruta? This question explains why I wrote "a small coin" in the article. Can't say much depends on this... --Zero 00:35, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hev you seen the Timeline of Anti-Semitism page? Is that a joke? I am furious. Danny 02:23, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC) Why are you furious...what is it about the page that angers you? OneVoice 15:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Danny, I am glad to hear that you have a significant and growing knowledge of both the Shoah and anti-semitism at different lines and locations. Wikipedia is in dire need of people with more knowledge and less material based upon personal opinion...having to cite a source for everything might be a good tonic.
You made a number of statements about me, identifying me as a Jew, and saying that my Jewish identity is based upon "victimization". (quote: "Be Jewish, because that way you can get the shit beaten out of you.") Wow....have we met? Do you know anything about me? Could I be a fundamentalist Christian that is also a Zionist? Never been to Aish HaTorah...I have looked at the Western Wall on their website...is that like "not inhaling"? ;)
One think that I have noticed about Jews, is there are those Jews who are so convinced of the innate goodness of people that they choose to focus on that to the exclusion of ample evidence to the contrary regarding certain individuals and groups...and then they are surprised at the vicious behavior of these individuals and groups...its as if they forget that there are those in the world that would rejoice in their deaths. That's a very dangerous thing to forget.
I dont mean to upset you. I would like you to temper your assumptions about me however based upon what you actually know rather than what you might suspect. Think of it as a science experiment ;) Gut Shabbes. OneVoice 16:33, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Locator map for El Salvador
Hi - actually, I did make a locator map for El Salvador, but it's on the El Salvador talk page rather than in the main article. Somebody suggested to me that if the template hadn't been applied yet, I should put the maps on the talk page, but later on, other people told me not to bother, so I stopped. El Salvador is one of the few countries where the map is still hidden away on the talk page. (I think there may be a few others). I hope that helps. -- Vardion 02:29, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I just did a major re-write of Pharisees -- I just got too tired of it being entirely from a NT POV. Anyway, my rewrite is pretty crude. If you are so inclined, could you look it over sometime? Thanks, Slrubenstein
- It looks great! Good work! Optim 13:10, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't think there is any possibility of mediation, since he is completely out of control now, vandalising my User page and calling me a Nazi (always a bad sign). I'd be quite happy for someone knowledgeable to arbitrate as opposed to mediate - chose a version of the article then protect it permanently. But I know WP doesn't do that. Adam 13:48, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Mediation between Adam and me is pointless for now. Adam turns into a fanatic whenever the issue of Communism comes up. And my cooperation is contingent on Adam acting as a rational user. I cannot assume that Adam is reasonable when he attacks people as Stalinists for removing a sentence like the following:
- Although attempts by the Clinton administration in the U.S. and by Kim Dae-jung in South Korea to settle the issues in dispute between the DPRK on the one hand and the U.S. and South Korea on the other hand had clearly failed, it did not seem that the U.S. or South Korea had any plans to remove the DPRK regime by force.
Perhaps one could charge me with being an apologist for Kim Dae-jung and Bill Clinton. But the hyperbole coming from Adam is so extreme that it makes me think that I'm dealing with a madman. So, I'll try a new strategy for dealing with him; I'll fight his demagoguery with my own demagoguery. When he calls me a Stalinist, I'll call him a fascist. When he calls me an apologist, I'll charge him with McCarthyism. That way, I'm hoping that browbeating will no longer be a workable tactic for him, and he'll eventually realize that he must be a reasonable user. BTW, he uses McCarthy tactics against scores of users. I believe that I'm the first so far to have stood up to him. 172 14:09, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Just to kibitz, I think Adam's interaction with other Wikipedians has been gradually going downhill; check out Talk:History of the Middle East, where he says to WhisperToMe "I have reverted all your edits. As I might have expected from our arguments at History of Athens, they are poorly written". Whatever happened to discussing things first? Stan 14:21, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Stan, first, if you look at Whisper's edits to History of the Middle East, you will see how bad they are and why I reverted them. If you look at the Talk page you will see that I have in fact been discussing the issues with him. However you need to know that I have a history with Whisper at History of Athens, and I know it is impossible to convince him of anything. This may have to do with his being a teenager. But he is not unreasonable and I am happy to debate with him. 172, on the other hand, is a fool and a bare-faced liar and I have no scruples about treating him with the contempt he deserves. (Sorry to drag all this onto your Talk page, Danny). Adam 14:41, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I will have a go at Muslim League if you visit Talk:History of the Middle East and patiently explain to WhisperToMe why I won't accept his endless juvenile edits. My patience with him is just about exhausted. Adam 03:08, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Danny I'm sorry to inflict topics like List of concentration camps for Poles on you, but you do seem to be the resident expert. Could you look at my most recent comment on the talk page and tell me if you agree? I think this article ought to be deleted but I don't suppose I can win that argument. Adam 05:55, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Concerning your comments on the Arab population: The paper by Golan that I cited on the talk page states that about 1000 Arabs remained in 1948. Later population figures for Arabs (same source) are: March 1950 (1.3K out of 9.9K = 13%), end of 1955 (2.2K out of 21.7K = 10%). There is nothing mentioned about former Arab residents returning. The Jewish population of 1955 was artificially inflated by the presence of transition camps for new immigrants. The average rate of increase of the Arab population since 1955 was about 3.2%, which is about what is expected by natural increase (which was over 4% for most of the 1960s). So I don't see a case for a substantial return of Arabs who had left. --Zero 04:44, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Danny, thanks for your comments on Poland. I will incorporate some of that into History of Poland (1939-1945). But what to do about List of concentration camps for Poles? It seems from what you say and what I have read to be a completely bogus article, based on postwar Polish nationalist mythology. Unfortunately most of the Poles who insist on editing in the English Wikipedia have such poor English and limited historical knowledge that it is impossible to argue with them. I still think it should be deleted. Adam 02:30, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'd be quite certain that they don't have English sources for this. It appears to come from lists of place-names which were used in postwar compensation cases in Poland against Germany. It might well be a based on a list of all places in which Poles were ever imprisoned or detained, but that would include just about every place-name in Poland and is not useful information. I am quite happy to get into an edit war, since being neither Polish nor Jewish I can't be accused of having a stake in this argument. I think first I will write some more material at History of Poland (1939-1945) setting out the material you have given me, making it clear that this is not an anti-Polish thing, then I will place a "disputed accuracy" tag on List of concentration camps for Poles and argue that it should be abolished since the topic is dealt with at the other article. Adam 03:08, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hmm. You seem to be contradicting yourself now. My edit is mostly a paraphrase of the text you gave me before. Do you think this other book contradicts or refutes the first one? I must say "2,000 concentration camps" sounds unlikely. There weren't anything like that many in Germany. What were they for? I suspect the term "concentration camp" is being misused here. They are more likely to have been fairly transient labour camps. Adam 04:16, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I would like to invite you to discussion around the article. There is hot dispute over some issues. Thanks in advance! Cautious 12:43, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I still do saint articles. Is there any particular saint that you want me to write an article on? Perl 02:21, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I want to thank you DEEPLY for your support in the vote to promote me to a sysop. I promise to do my best to be as helpful, sensible, and neutral as possible. Your friend, Ryan.
The List of concentration camps for Poles includes all existing subcamos of the main concentration camps. The free relocation of the work force was driving idea behind the appealing success of the German war economy. Cautious 13:14, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I thot i had a workaround for having created a file prematurely, that i had intended to create by moving, but i just got
- A page of that name already exists, or the name you have chosen is not valid. Please choose another name, or contact an Administrator to help you with the move.
What i want is
- Move page: List of people by name: Br
- To new title: List of people by name: Bro
Sorry, looking again i realized you were probably running a bot & asked John Kenney, who was puzzled by why it didn't work, but fixed it. Sorry for the disturbance. And the forgotten sig! --Jerzy(t) 05:07, 2004 Mar 20 (UTC)
Hi, you reverted my edit to the Wikipedia: List of encyclopedia topics (45). The page Martes pennanti is a redirect to the page Fisher (animal). Unless there is a strong reason why the "List of Encyclopedia topics" pages are different from the rest of the the Wikipedia, shouldn't the link go to the actual page? Dsmdgold 03:58, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Re Poles: I am thinking of withdrawing from all the Poland-related pages. These people are quite impossible. Not only are they complete zealots, they also don't have good enough English to argue with. God knows what the Polish-language Wikipedia looks like. Adam 05:58, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Frustrating is right. It's as if we were dealing with a somewhat literate version of User:JoeM. But I'm sorry to let you down. I'm running short of time and I won't be back for another 12 hours or so. In the meantime, try to sic Adam Carr on those two. Let's not be afraid to unleash the pit bulls. BTW, do you know what happened to Jtdirl? 172 12:17, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Thanks on the phobia help! Mark Richards 00:27, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I could use some help. The 'social democracy = fascism' team has found Wikipedia:Requests for comment/172. It would be great if I could get a couple of people to vouch for me, saying that while I might've been hastily reverting pages, I was hastily reverting fiction. If you have time, thanks in advance. 172 19:54, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Danny, your edit wrt Levzur on Wikipedia:Requests for adminship reads like a vote, but it's located in the (rather novel) impromptu comments section, and so it's not being counted as a vote. If you do intend it to be a vote, perhaps you might like to move it up to the #counting section and update the tally accordingly. Thanks. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:00, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
On Zapotocky: Britannica has him born on Dec. 12, so that left enough reasonable doubt in my mind as to his DOB. Not to mention a bunch of "this day of history" sites say Dec. 9, but that's probably a typo that got copied over and over. Everyking 22:02, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Of course it's ridiculous to vote on the fascism thing, but I think it's the easiest way to get the thing unprotected - TDC seems to have agreed to cooperate, even. john 05:27, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have some ideas - the problem is a general one - POV disguised as "NPOV." It seems that a ratings system by which we can evaluate each other's neutrality / objectivity, with respect to issues could be in order. Regards, -SV(talk) 00:44, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If you think this article is still a stub, can you suggest what else is needed on the articles talk page? It was discussed there and determined to remove the stub message. Bkonrad | Talk 04:39, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The problem with differentiation of ethnic Germans and Nazi collaborators in Poland was, that the Nazi system in Poland was kind of apartheid. Ethnic Germans were forced to became Volksdeutsche and treated as a pillar of Nazi authority. It is also questionable, who was and who wasn't ethnic German. According to some sources, many people, who became Volksdeutsche, were in matter of fact ethnic Poles. Out of 2.8 milion of Volksdeutsche in Poland, most were verified as Poles after WW2. Not easy to resolve. Cautious 09:56, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The medical side of things
Hi Danny, thanks for your talk page message. How'd you notice my efforts on the medical side? I appreciate I'm being noticed :-) (some of my contributions go unedited for weeks...)
I'm easily characterised as a "Yekkishe Doktor", although I have not cultivated a German accent (my Dutch one is bad enough). A glance at my edits of Samson Raphael Hirsch should do...
Your offer for help on my WikiDoc effort is greatly appreciated. Would you happen to know how I can arrange for those pretty blue boxes to appear beneath articles? I'm looking for ways to integrate all those medical articles into some form of framework. Are you an admin by any chance??
JFW | T@lk 01:18, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I'm only Litvak by training - spent a year in a Litvishe Yeshiva, and I can still do the learning niggun when doing some Gemara with a Litvak.
- There will be a lot of blue boxes (one for each medical specialty), so I might ask you for some help later on... First trying it myself.
- Recent cases of Matzo Fever? JFW | T@lk 01:31, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the speed of light feedback, Danny! Please offer further comments as you see fit, before I walk into a Consensus-Free-Zone and get mowed down by flames and anti-pedantic forces. JFW | T@lk 02:24, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Re: Morgenthau Plan
I'm sorry what you saw was only a work in progress move. The article under Henry Morgenthau, Jr. was 90% about the plan, so I moved it to Morgenthau Plan. I then took the brief biography of Morgenthau that started that article and placed it in a new article titled Henry Morgenthau, Jr.. I then created a new, more appropriate, introduction for the Morgenthau Plan article. - SimonP 03:20, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)
I have taken the horrible mess at List of concentration camps for Poles and moved it to Camps in Poland during World War II, where I have tried to write a decent article. I expect to be attacked by the Polish Nationalist faction, and it would be nice to get some support from people who care about history at Wikipedia. I am getting tired of fighting this battle by myself. Adam 09:51, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Opps! (BTW, do you mind my removal of the previous comment?) That was a big blunder on my part. Sorry about that. 172 00:24, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Hm, lot's of stuff going on. (1) I just now noticed that your talk page is "protected". Am I violating the rules by leaving this message. Gosh! (2) Hephaeston reinstated the quickpoll. (3) Am I letting my east European Jewish ancestry blind me to the facts here? --Uncle Ed 19:29, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hi, I guessed your last few protections were accidental, so I've removed the protection from your talk page. I apologise if you actually meant it to be protected, but I couldn't see a reason why that would be the case. Angela. 23:52, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)
Danny's not abusive. I bet if a stawpoll were called, I'd come out way ahead of Danny. :) 172 00:29, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the kind words. Hope you don't mind me editing this page. Feel free to edit any of the year in architecture pages, and to create new ones - that's what they're there for :)
Thanks for everything Danny. I'm sorry about the silly run-in we had once. Sometimes some users make me wonder why I still bother, but then it's people like you or Secretlondon who make up for it again. --Wik 22:47, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC) (Sorry for posting here as your talk page is protected)
Thanks for your vote in re my admin nomination. How you (and some of the rest) reacted so quickly is hard to credit. Amazing!
Anyway, I'm glad you think it's a worthwhile record. Thanks again.
On to another subject or two. I can't seem to find a way to add this to your Talk page (no link to edit this page). I get view source instead, which I suspect isn't quite what is meant. Is there a problem you haven't heard about yet? If not, what have I managed to miss?
Hope to hear from you to settle this minor mystery.
ww 20:58, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Danny, Sorry to hear about the vandalism problem. Perhaps it has now stopped as you've moved my thanks comment to the Talk page. Hope so anyway.
- ww 17:05, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I just checked my source files, and strangely, there's no title startring with "al" either. I'll try to backtrack that, but for now, I don't have any titles available. Maybe we should just post all "al*" titles from a certain 1911 encyclopedia? --Magnus Manske 08:37, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for supporting my nomination as an admin...
...I appreciate it. Dpbsmith 09:59, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The next state is Illinois
The next state I will do is Illinois. WhisperToMe 14:26, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for finishing msg:Missouri. I kind of ran out of steam last nite, and it was nice to come back & find it taken care of! jaknouse 01:35, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- msg:Arkansas is now done. Were you offering to insert it? (Hope, grin). jaknouse 01:56, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Welcome messages and vandalism
Hello, and thanks for letting me know about the blocks. I try to check the "diff" page for a new user's edits before posting the welcome, but it's not practical to do that with every one. I have given some thought to that and I believe that it's still beneficial in the end to welcome everyone (vandals or not). Unless the user believes I'm a bot (which is a possibility), the fact that they get a "New Messages" notice at the top and see someone posting something to them, I believe, lets them know that, in a way, they are being watched and can't click edit links at random and disappear into the cracks. Also, there's nothing in the welcome message to encourage what they've already done, and there's always the chance that they will realize people see their edits and decide to make real contributions. Perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic but it seems to me there aren't many downsides to posting welcomes to every new user (regardless of what they've done). — Jrdioko (Talk) 01:38, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Hi Danny, I think with the total lack of opposition to you joining the mediation committee five days is enough for the vote. Welcome to the committee. You may want to add your contact details to Wikipedia:Mediation Committee and look through the related pages including Wikipedia:Confidentiality during mediation. It would also be useful to look a the [mediation bulletin boards]. If you register there I can give you access to the mediator only area. Welcome again. -- sannse (talk) 12:13, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't all the songs be together on one sight. I thought Wikipedian policy was also to condense. It will fit all nicely on one site. I can not find where you moved it to though.WHEELER 14:26, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I haven't heard of the Black Prairie before. But I'll go look it up. WhisperToMe 17:52, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)